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tv   Book Discussion on Out of Sight  CSPAN  September 7, 2015 11:45am-12:54pm EDT

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support mrs. clinton. erik loomis, it's next on book tv. [inaudible conversations] >> all right. let's get started. hi, everyone, thank you for
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coming, this is exciting, i know it's miserable and disgusting outside.x i'm reallyw glad you slushed up here. i'm so glad you are here. i'm sarah, i'm a labor journalist and do labor pot cast and i have known erik since we were bloggers. out of sight, the book that we are here to discuss and also has a book coming out, later movement in the logging industry in the specific northwest. that's coming in october, and he writes with blog, lawyers, skins money. so once upon time, erik
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recruited me, and he's written this book, which is combined labor and environmental history into a potent argument about the problems that we face now in today's politics and today's world. thank you so news press. i'm going to turn over to a minute to tell you a little bit about the book and i will have a few questions for him and we will take questions for you. we're also on c-span book tv, so smile, say thank you for them to coming and i'll turn the floor to erik. >> thank you for coming out on a hot, hot day. i'm just going to talk for just a few minutes and give you the general argument of my new book. 1911, famous incident that many
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of you know, 146 young female immigrant workers died at factory fire in new york. and this event was precipitated by an industry where powerful department stores in this case contracted out to some contractors to make clothing very cheaply and the conditions in this sweat shops were terrible. there was everything from sexual exploitation of works -- workers and women went on strike in order to -- they want a few things but they want workplace safety. two years later, the cost of that was clear 146. because it was in downtown new
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york, famous people saw this happened. wealthy people saw this happened. they literally saw the workers who made their clothes die and because of that, they finally began to identify with the workers and began to fight for accountability in this industry, and so that leads to a serious of reforms on workers, on business safety, fire state of the, -- safety. that's a point of the 20th century. when america said, we want to stand up to the excesses of american capitalism, the battle days, the corporations being able to do whatever they want to do needed to end, and over much of the 20th century americans made enormous impact in training the excesses of capitalism. that leads to all sorts of laws that change from this social
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security act, minimum wage, the 40-hour week, to high rates of unionization in the mid-20 century, and after world war ii, americanans continues, corporations being able to dump plugts wherever they want, no accountable. they began to demand accountability, you have a variety ofea clean-air acts, try cleanesd up the american environment so that we today don't really experience environmental impact our ancestoris did in brooklyn, anywhere around the nation. and so this is a really successfulon story, but corporations began to work through a way out of it.
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they want to -- they want to escape the environmental regulations. from a very early important, they're kindrl of starting to begin to do this with some companies beginning to move to the south where you don't have the w same level of regulations, but beginning in the 1960's you really begin to see companies start moving their factories overseas in order to escape the regulations, because what corporations want to repeat the highly exploittive nature overseas. they begin to move overseas and beginning to places like korea and taiwan and china and in the 21st century, central america and poor countries in south,
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southeast asia. in 2013, over 1100 workers died in bangladesh and the story is almost the same as the triangle fire. young women working in the apparel industry with powerful departmentl stores like wal-mart putting high-cost pressure on contractors to make sure that it stays cheap, the factory collapses on it. and it's almost the exact same thing as 1911 except we don't see it. means don't see it, we can't find beng beng
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>> could you repeat the questions have -- >> we are still bound by them here in the united states or in honduras, or in méxico. as a corporation says that, that restriction should be plied, this raises too much, they are going to move to another country. in doing that we create exploitation that allows companies to create tremendous amount of process while undermining workers around the world. what happens? the work the union organizers get fired, the union organizers get murdered, put in jail, the government ignores because the government is owned by the apparel company.
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look at the united states. are things getting better for workers in? the united states? no they're not. these big union jobs, unions like the united auto workers or steel workers were largely moved everseas or sometimes to the south where you have strong antiunion regime, what has then happened is that workers have lost voice in the arena, and so what happens? cuirpcións again, retake over the nation setting the agenda, fighting against union, fighting against workplace safety so that the regimes we do create la
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osha. they become underfunded. you have states fully committed, you have states such as wichción -- wisconsin and michigan, you have the citizens united decision, 125 years ago corporations are able to control the agenda and workers can't, unless you have income inequality and you have the beginning of social movement to fight b that. [laughs] >> it's a story with solutions. we can recreate stable good work for people, but what we have to do is hold corporations legally
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accountable no matter where they go. and they have to be accountable no matter who they sub contract to andsu no matter where they pt their countries. companies like wal-mart can say, this isn't our problem, no, it needs to be their problem. if contractors kill workers, wal-mart needs to be legally and financially responsible for that, and that has to happen in america corps, we can talk about nit the discussion, the government getting involve to make a difference in other countries. there's a long history of this. we can do that. in doing so, we can undermine the mobility that destroy jobs in the united states and we could help workers in honduras, in cambodia create a middle
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class. this is the point of the book. diagnosissing the problem of what happens with all of our production, our consumption is moved out of site and also try to think ahead to how we can fix the problem. it's not just a book about decry -- sara, i'll go ahead and send it to you. >> you are quite good at time management, my friend. that is impressive. >> so i want to start out with the way that the labor and the environmental movements are talked about in the media and often between one another is the idea that these two things are in odds, why is it so important in the book and in your work to talkhi about the way that the challenges both of these movements face are the same thing? >> sure, basically both the labor movement and the environmental movement have effectively common enemy and that's the could you repeat the question. the corporations are seeking to
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lower cost in anyway they can. that's the point of the corporation. that includes pressing down on workers and it includes pollution, dumping things in the environment, not cleaning it up. they have a common enemy and in many ways they both know that, and there's a history like academic would recollect, gets into it, because there was a long history in the pacific northwest of loggers in the 1930's, '50s trying to stay with conservationist, the workers knew that that exploitive logging could destroy jobs. it would destroy the forest and also destroy the workers' jobs. but what happens is that
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beginning in 1970, the job in the u.s. were disappearing. at the same time, environmentists are succeeding, likely creation of environmental, and so what employers begin to today even though they are planning on moving those jobs overseas anyway, in my cases where the corporations openly lying about why they are doing this, they can -- if you support this new law that would limit how much we consumption in the air, we are going to move our factory to moism. because this in 1970's, the companies are doing that. the workers are getting scared. they need to eat. they don't want nature to spoil because they go out, they hike, foish, enjoy nature and their
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union contract gave them the time and money to enjoy that nature. but with that crumbling around them,av workers really had a harder and harder time supporting environmentalism, and that's why today with the pipeline, right, the controversial pop line that would bring a dam to texas, some unions were opposed to it. .. urn them down, our members don't have work in this antiunion economy, we need jobs. you tax environmentalist and union without supporting because they need jobs. they have tremendous amount in
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common and need to unite, but it's very difficult when you're telling workers, hey, you're going to have so sacrifice the job because they can't sacrifice that job because they need to feed their families. >> so begin with, and you talk tonight about triangle fire, the same as people who saw that happen, perkins, later secretary. this is a great story but also a story of reform from this house. people like me, like some of you in the audience here it becomes a hard drinking here because we also believe reform has to come from the workers within. so why is it important people outside of the work ways to see what happens and get involved in these struggles? >> workers are always
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struggling. in 1909 the uprising of the 20,000 are finding. but what has to happen to succeed on their own. they largely need some kind of middle-class allies. they were going to pass the legislation that is needed to fix these problems. so it's a tricky situation. walker activism, workers involved in the struggle, central to the struggle is absolutely necessary for any of this to happen because politicians aren't going to do this by themselves. and after trying, you have workers around the country outraged by this. but what has to happen is workers and other such tours of society has to be able to unite around these issues.
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that's one of the problems you say with organized labor is a lot of the rest of society doesn't see organized labor as an important ally including a lot of people in the democratic party where they are support and you see people take labor for granted. i think what is happening, what has happened is you see workers standing up to say we have these demands and this is what we wanted we are going to put pressure on society to make this happen and politicians began to cave. that is what happened after triangle and the new deal out of the business of his heart. he passed it because hundreds of thousands of workers are going on strike in 1934 scaring society that something radical would have been any see it again today.
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>> it affects people and will bring us some rain. -- something. >> on the other side, what happens when disaster is the need to care. when you have everyday problems of wage theft, low wages of sexual harassment in the work place, things that are not spectacular, to get attention to those things? >> awfully hard. the power of video and visualization is tremendous. think about the ray rice incident. we know domestic violence is an enormous problem. ray rice, the nfl running back was caught on video. look at what is happening with likewise matter. how much his topic is now added that he had a cell phone and can record the cops doing stuff. how much of that matters? it is chairman is. within the nicene in 1619.
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the legal discrimination or de facto discrimination against african-americans was a constant. video matters so much. there's a certain certain amount we can do without that, but it sure helps to have video. this is one thing technology can bring us. you can theoretically gave -- we can theoretically record decisions inside of bangladesh that could theoretically be sent out and you see the agricultural industry because the animal rights activists are getting jobs in factory farms and taking secret video of how the animals are treated and that becomes a powerful piece of propaganda. the agricultural industry that
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would make private ownership on surveillance video inside the factories of crime and if you have a cultural industry gets away with it, why can't any other industry do it. said the access to visualization is absolutely vital because it sure is a lot easier today a lot easier tonight the change of people say what's going on. we read something and be like that's very sad. most of us are good people. it's easy to ignore things because it's much harder. >> thinking out the audio from this captive audience and union meetings. >> sure, absolutely. people actually hear the ridiculous things and intimidation when workers try to unionize, it is discussed towards the companies.
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>> in the middle of all of this, we are facing this big fight over the partnership than this site of course takes up a lot of issues you write about in this book. how does your book help us prepare for stage two of that and what should we be thinking about going forward? >> the partnership is 12 nations agreement would be a trade agreement that makes it easier to outsource more jobs but also adds a lot of other impacts including extended patents for pharmaceutical companies said they could make more money, copyright protection laws that help corporations and perhaps most frightening investor state dispute settlement courts that would effectively allow nations that signed up in this agreement
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to sue countries or functions when they pass new legislation that would potentially affect the process of the company going forward. the u.s. can pass a higher minimum wage but if they wanted to give elation companies in the united stated, then it may force the united state to pay malaysia all of that potentially lost profit. much more likely for u.s. companies doing not about power. this is a real thing. this isn't some conspiracy area. you've already see a french company suing egypt over a minimum wage law using this court. they were pushing an anti-tobacco legislation because that will negatively affect the
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process. this is a real thing. i think the one thing i would say about it is one worth thinking about solution to this, the idea is a disaster, but we do need international law with accountability for corporations in order to create the mechanism so you're exploited by bama -- you can sue the united states. we need international law. one might argue if the courts didn't exist that's a pipe dream. but we are already creating the system. it just help corporations, not to help the workers. i think that helping us think about a globalized economy global implications not going
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away, how can we create the structures to create accountability and to help out workers for help citizens if these apparel companies are dumping guys into their rivers. how can we create the accountability and legal regimes. i sat up, the tpp is an enormous disaster along with education probably president obama's worst policy. it is deeply disturbing that the silver lining and then maybe we can build on this international agreements to take away for that would help out workers and citizens. >> you are so optimistic. so in the book you write about the struggles by people who face and outsourcing at home or even right here in new york city.
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and so, i want you to talk about the way they still function within the united states and the struggles of communities color against that. >> what corporations want is not living abroad per se. they want to maximize for many reasons that might mean stay in the united states. many industries are staying in the united states bears some of that is because they work in natural resources and the natural resources exist wit such as oil. some of that might be toxic waste management companies. they get a contract from the federal government assumed chemical companies would say to put toxic waste somewhere. where are they going to place it? do you want a toxic waste dump
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in your backyard? no, you don't. who doesn't have the power to resist that? african-american communities, latino communities, native american communities. they consistently seek out intentionally these spaces often in rural areas, sometimes in counties where there is a small isolated community of latinos, usually mexicans. sometimes it will be in the cities, whether new york or albuquerque with populations and people of color. quite often it is the south. what happens if you have an environmental injustice that goes on environmental racism. the environmental justice movement really get started in the 1980s with communities of color building up the civil
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rights movement saying why is my community being targeted in a toxic way. we should fight against it. and it continues but it's hard because these are poor communities. you have to often times attract outside allies and get their attention in order to fight for this because they have the lawyers in the money and they are fighting against royal dutch shell, exxonmobil. these are billion dollars companies. that's a very, very difficult fight. part of what is happening is out of sight really mean separating consumers from the impact of production so when you go to the store, then meet just appears in a package. the clothes are just on the shelf. how did they get there? you don't want to know and nobody will make you now. so whether that is happening in
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alabama or honduras, as long as you don't know, you're not going to do anything about it. so that can often be united states and a lot of that is foreign outsourcing, but companies are conscious of where people of power and where they don't in the country and they are citing factors to take advantage of that. >> you mentioned there me showing up in grocery stores. the chapter that struck me the most in this book was the third chapter. what you sort of detailed is the way food is the ultimate globalizing commodity, but also how capital mobility leads to migration, people come into the country because of various things that happen where they are from and how that ends up affect in conditions here as well if also it to global
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productions. i want you to talk about the argument you lay out in the way all those things connect. >> third is some name that obviously matters tremendously. of all the industries that we might be acted on around these issues, food is some and we put into our body on a daily basis of a personal experience and a food culture in the united states has become more so. we don't want to be poisoned. we want ethical production in our food to the extent we are aware of it. the story around food and these issues is much broader. why do people from mexico and central america come to the united states. that is a complex answer. a big part of it is thanks to these global trade agreement,
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american companies are able to dump corn on the mexican market and becomes cheaper in mexico to buy that from the united states with local farmers who were on their land. the mobile farmers can no longer be farmed in this globalized economy and this has happened for a variety of reasons. the green revolution, the input of technology that created places like india and mexico does the law. it is an important thing. unlike plowing roads with your donkey, that will not compete anymore by dumping corn on the market. if people lose their ability to
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farmed and lo and behold they become the migratory labor force that are moving to mexico because now these people need jobs. people say these mexicans need jobs. they should be grateful they come down. we also have to look at why that is. why are they so poor. for instance in the southern state of mexico right now there is a right to stay in the farm. people want to stay on the farm. so what happens is they are forced off their land and they go to mexico city, make products for the u.s. market. they serve as the agricultural labor force is here. so when we think about how dear they cross the border, it is in no small part responsibility for them wanted to cross the border in the first place. there's really complex issues
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and i've talked long enough for the fanfare, but the food issue is tremendously complicated and brings together a lot of issues i talk about in the book. >> so climate change, which we've been making jokes about on twitter all day because it's a million degrees outside as the ultimate underside issue. every time it's cold out, the climate change are like global warming. we often hear about it and not what it's going to do to you in brooklyn. so we have also seen a lot of recent successes. i also live in new york and we also managed to stop tracking coming to new york because a lot of people got angry that there was literally going to be attracting well in their backyard. so how do we get more people who
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are going to have a fraction while in their backyard understand the fight is going to end up in all of our backyards. >> is tired. but police brutality. [inaudible] >> fair enough. the messaging part of it is difficult. the climate change is very much about a an idea that environmentalism and i'm a huge proponent and they do tremendous work but there have been messaging issues the last few decades for funding to fight against corporate attacks on the legal system that these organizations need to raise money. so what convinces people to give
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a pretty picture of a polar bear cub works pretty well. environmental impacts around humans. it's 100 degrees in brooklyn. how many people don't have air-conditioning in brooklyn? a lot of people don't. particularly people of color. you'll have much higher death rates in the summer from a lack of air conditioning. you'll see much higher asthma rates because of cockroach growth which is an asthma trigger. these issues affect humans as well as florida to be leading the way. florida is going to disappear and be covered with water. the red ants, not only do they not do anything about it, florida governor rick scott refuses to do anything about it. even though miami is flooded or
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in war every year. so i don't have an answer of how you make this happen. because i think to an extent better messaging matters, but you have such a highly funded corporate campaign to ensure nobody knows science is complicated and put in people's mind. people don't have the time to follow the details of climate science. it is very easy to ignore or be confused about it. it's a really hard question. >> it's interesting because one of the things and i joke about you being optimistic but i kind of think when what we hear about climate change we turn it off. the fact you give us this series
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away to move forward. it makes it easier to accept that this is horrifying but we can do something about it. when i saw just drink more wine. i joke with you about being optimistic, but i want you to talk about that. >> the conservative corporate lobby has been very successful at one thing and they do so in a number of ways. some of it out right lying, but also their nintendo's strategy because we will take it over and now convince people the government doesn't listen and they will trust us more. but in fact, we cannot create
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effective change without getting the government on our side to make it happen. if you want 1950, it's as good as beijing today. their life expectancy will go down. if you went to the streets of pittsburgh in 2015, the beautiful city. but you know what hertzberg has worked like it has today. that is a whole new thing. that is because government got involved in mixing of pittsburgh and force the industry to quit polluting so much. you know how workers stop dying so much on the job because we created osha and osha limited to spending as much as they tried to crack down sufficient funding has produced safety problems
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because there's some chance of an inspection. the government is absolutely necessarily a well functioning government moving forward on these issues. an american government where climate change is an issue, where we said we have to do something about this and the only way will happen is not by me driving. but the consumer will have been because the government gets involved and creates massive changes. we have done that before and we can do it again including on climate change. they made a point where the climate will not change to some extent. but we are certainly where it is as bad as we could get. we could do a lot to limit these changes.
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it's not going to be easy, but we can do it. we're not going to do it without the government stepping in that is working for international corporations and providing public transportation and affordable, all sorts that it could do. look at the freeways. they drive all across the country. they are effective. the corporations have told us the government does somewhere. that part we have to not only make government work, but we have to believe government is working. >> see a kind of force on my next question they are. -- it all flows very nicely. when we hear about an environmental disaster, i'm thinking of the recent "new york times" story.
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a lot of people's reaction is i am not going to get my nails done anymore. you just sad that becomes an individualistic response that doesn't actually solve the bigger problem here. this is a long-standing thing in the country where we have learned not to think collectively and politically about these things. so what are the building blocks of thinking about political solutions that can actually tackle huge terrifying things that climate change. >> sure. another way the corporation has been a fact that is making us incredibly powered individuals. we as individuals define who we are to the extent our politics in many cases people feel like we are showing it off to the world. it's about me.
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people say i'm not going to support clothing. i will buy secondhand clothing. that does nothing to solve the problem. people say i'm not going to drive, but i'm not going to fight for collective action. it doesn't do much to solve the problem. it really is in doing anything but making you feel good. same with the nail salon. what we have to understand is that it's okay to get your nails done. you have to demand the nail salons are well regulated, workers are getting paid, that they're not enforced labor contracts and the government can do that. we have to believe the government can do well and then we have to force the government to do the right thing because they won't do it on their own. you have to move the government
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to work for us. we've done before. we see it again with the minimum-wage increases around the country, even conservative states like arkansas. sometimes people do believe the government can do. we have to put in kinabalu can i change my consumer choices. there are times when a consumer boycott is issued and when the workers themselves to mandate. there are cases where workers say please boycott this product to support our strake or action. that is great. support the workers, help them build their power. assess consumers have to stop and can about what i can do is start again about what we can do. these things don't really get done. if we do start thinking about
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collective solution and how can we make this happen in the political arena versus i'm not going to buy new clothes, that is how life gets better. that is how things get in the united states and that climate change. >> last question before i open it up. if you read a under blog on this day in labor history. why is it important for you as an historian to write a book like this to write for the general public and why is it important for us to know that labor history? >> that's a great question. we can understand problems we have today for the successes we have today. i'm a history professor so i want everybody to understand. we can't know why things went wrong and we can't know why
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things went right without understanding how it got there. the situation today is the 21st century america very similar in many ways to late 19th century america. we live better lives thanks to our union ancestors and people fighting for better change. similarly to the late 19th century, changes in capitalism has slapped a in the face and we don't know how to respond. at that time was the rise and huge corporations are here overnight and hey i thought the system would work for everybody. where is mine. it disappeared almost overnight and created decades of trying to figure out what to do. 18 hour day fix everything? we didn't know. similar situations overnight
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believe in the mid-20th century the system is working for us. union jobs, pensions, 40 hour weeks, vacations and today most of that is gone. what is going on here. we have no good answer yet. i think it's very interesting to put occupied in an historical context because there were lots of moments in the late 19th century when out of nowhere american families had enough of this and we will fight back and all of a sudden there's a social move it and it disappears quickly for various reasons. it's not a failure. it's a response to changes that touched peoe and they demanded to make those changes but we still don't know where to go. looking how americans built a functional safe, clean,
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non-polluted society is absolutely vital to understanding how we do that on national and global scale of the 21st century. it's absolutely essential and what i hope the book does is rack ignites sadly not everyone will spend all their days reading history. but hopefully this book will give people a quick and dirty overview of the information they need to say there are similarities here. we can move forward. what can we learn from the past to solve the problem. it's changing the nation but i hope it influences some people to think historically about the current processes. >> i want to take some questions from you all. deb is back there at the
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microphone. raise your hand and she will put a microphone in your face and you can ask them questions. adding a mac >> if you could give us your name, that would be great. audio not [inaudible] >> yeah, as an academic that is a tough question. i think it is like a lot of other struggles. what is happening in academia is happening because you have
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strong workers, strong work with protections where people can speak out. why do conservatives hate universities? people like me speak out. if you work for goldman sachs or chase come you're not allowed to speak out because your job is on the line. what conservatives are trying to do is create a situation in the university where you could be fired for saying whatever you want. and it is i would like to point out and what's happened is the same corporate control as far as funding issues go. if you say universities aren't working, we are not going to fund them anymore and then we'll cut the funding more and more. you are telling americans to private options like the university of phoenix is a great idea but 3%.
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people going away for the online degrees are the same with these massive online open source is in place people like me and get credit and sit in front of your computer but nobody graduated because people don't come if you don't have the face-to-face impact. conservatives don't want the independent and they want to open a private options and because political reasons for people like me. i guess what i would say that the issues around the university is complicated. it should be seen in context with the other related issues going on in the world today and how corporations are seeking to take over every part of the world in the attack on
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universities makes it hard to get a permanent job is part and parcel of a larger strategy. [inaudible] [inaudible] [inaudible] >> that's a great question. here is what i think about that. and i talk about this in the book to some extent. in the 90s you had a big
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movement and i was part of that movement and you had real successes and environmentalists working together of those issues come university sign a licensing agreement to ensure fair production of university of perils and then gave some real wins. but this is like government matters so much because after 9/11, the organizing energy moves from the anti-sweatshop campaign to the global war on terror and iraq. the reality is people work on issues their whole life but nobody knows what will tap a social movement energy any one time. but what we know pretty strong list of a popular perspective it's only one or two issues at any one time.
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right now that is where the energy is that this moment. that should be supported and it's not going to stay there forever. the sweatshop stuff doesn't stay there forever. rather than say we need a social movement in the streets to fight these things, which we do, ultimately the social movement has to encapsulate or consolidate victories in law because once the movement moves on without the law, without a regulatory structure there is not much left. right now they take up these issues some limited gains of bangladesh. when president trump wins in 2017, we invade iran the first day of the administration. the organizing energy will move toward that.
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>> not cool, eric. not cool. >> there's no answer about how do you get something on a particular movement. people try and try and sometimes it happens. >> a president trump wins he will dismantle all the things we just one anyway. >> operably so. that is why i think ultimately that is what we have to focus on because there is an answer around a particular issue i be a famous person or somebody else would have done it. there's not. but we do have the energy to move toward a real legal framework is the way you ensure the legacy of the movement. >> this gentlemen up here have
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the question. >> hi, i am norman. [inaudible] the biggest problem i see on my side is we can't get our membership into the field and get them interested. i for one firm communications network see some pretty outlandish things. i still affirm some of the greatest union people in history . i can't get people to fight for reasonable and because we can't get the nod of the living rooms. what do we do to incentivize a
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tremendous workforce if we can only get them and inspire them. >> is such a good question. if harrison is in there, you would know the answer. so i think one thing i would say about that is i think sometimes we let back on the great successes, whether it is the civil rights unit for the labor movement and we think why can't things be like they were when everybody was in the streets. for the most part, that wasn't always true. it's easy to look back and see so many more people than there actually were. the biggest example is the
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famous sit in strike in 1937 they really created a functional worker which was a struggling organization. there must have been hundreds of thousands of auto workers in flint and auto plants around the nation. people were scared to death to join a union. it was a tiny group of activists who decided to do this not knowing it would work and once amazingly it did, the flood of workers came inside that to be uaw members. i think there's a lot of reasons but everyday people don't get out and organize or get on the street or join protests. to some extent they are scared. to some extent they are busy with family things. to some extent corporations have an effect did in convincing them
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the system works, but all you can do in the situation is keep trying because you just never know. you never know what will spark people to finally go. occupy as an of that. there is no easy answer to that. all you can do is to just keep trying sometimes it works and when it does work you can work wonders and america can change in the world can change. you are seeing it for the one sector workers right now. that is all you can ask for is to keep trying. >> event cuomo actually assigned something about was the telling
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thing he created the first example of the industrywide minimum wage standard versus state by state made it a whole lot harder and i worry about that. that's a steep move by a man i don't like very much. >> my name is ron. when you've been speaking about labor, bangladesh 10 years, there seems to be the entire group of people privately educated here in new york city and silicon valley. the whole group of people, harder they fall in this? >> that's an outstanding
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question. the tech industry is a great ample of how corporate and conservative propaganda has been so successful. what you are really seen is an entire industry developed based on the opposite and the true permitted workers working 16 hours a day and disruption and innovation is grayed and you can become wealthy and you can create a disruption. you are part of something new that would have rid of the whole economy. they really believe how powerful the extreme individualism is in this country we have all sorts of scenarios. huber is a perfect example of this problem. the stories you can work for yourself, for your own hours. you can control your labor.
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you can be a freelancer. all these things make it seem like you are living a better life get you her up and down the line in any way they can avoid for any sort of illegal labor standard. the entire industry at the powerful libertarian streak is really a sign of how small and successful that corporate propaganda has been and how strong that his influence especially young people today that the ideas of unionization, the idea of collective action is the opposite of the empowered individual that the tech industry promotes and has created. the tech industry is if anything the most powerful change and that is how scary things are and
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is symbolic of what's happening. that's a really great question. >> goobers business model is not new. it is the same as the trucking industry which is 40 years old. >> and it basically puts it all on the individual. i think cooper drivers believe the company of my friend, working for me. let me clear, all the advantages pursuing the policies and people have to recognize that it's a hard sell sometimes. >> we have time for one more. i see a hand in the back there and then i think eric was signed
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some books for anybody who's buying books and we will hang out and have a drink if you want to chat a little bit afterwards. [inaudible] >> great question. you're effectively going to create public sectors in the country and given it unlikely it will be denied. what it will do if public-sector unions. there is no question it's a bad thing. i think that what it is going to demand and you have seen this on some level, is first in
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michigan, you know, af t. assigned to most of the members to be union members. it is going to demand a more grassroots union because you will simply not have the bureaucratic structure. a lot of people think you're a craddick union and it has gotten a lot done as far as negotiating contracts and things of this nature but i think what it will demand is real work place grassroots organizing and participation. i think part of the response is going to depend what happens. some states that have had this happen on the state level like wisconsin you seen is a
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depressing thing and all of a sudden our power is gone and the union leadership, they are depressed about it basically said they don't respond. i was involved in the late 90s and early 2000 organizing what is not her union in tennessee where you never have collect his union bargaining rights. so there is no contract. what you do have is what really is a grassroots unionism where you still have payroll deduction that comes out of the people signing up for themselves with the union and it becomes about lobbying the state and local politicians. it becomes about fighting together unworked describes issues and things like that. i'm not saying that's a good thing. it's very scary part of the
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corporate attack on unions. if it is inevitable, unions have to make that adjustment if they are going to make relevant organizations. it's an adjustment in the future you can remember all these things on labor law. it is not inevitably always going to get worse. i have to say the current age of the justices is not in their 30s. so it is going to change in the future weather changes for better or worse is obviously in the air. but before the eventuality may take place, the public sector has to be proactive and thinking what is this going to look like, how can we move on it in the president so we can take advantage going forward or at
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least make things as good as they can be. >> so, thank you everyone for coming. [applause] like i said, our friends from the new press had the book for sale in the back. i'm sure eric is happy to sign them and write optimistic things in them for you. thank you. >> thank you. [inaudible conversations] [inaudible conversations]
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>> booktv recently visited capitol hill to ask members of congress what they are reading this summer. >> erik larson. i've read all of his works. almost a minute by minute description of what happens to the lusitania and it's very dramatic and goes back and forth during what is happening in europe and washington with president wilson what is happening to passengers on the shape, their stories. it's really a great read, well written and really brings that piece of history back to life and makes it very human. these are real human beings we can relate to who lost their lives sadly. great story. the

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